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www.profotonet.nl/ is apparently quite good. Make sure though that you export your image to the right color space. They got information on their website on what to do. Haven't used this lab yet though.
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Is there no option for specific instructions? Like when you go and get film developed?
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Why not tell them just to print it and not change the image?
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I work in a minilab (Fuji Frontier equipment) and when I print my own stuff I do it direct from media (usually my USB pendrive) and make sure all the Frontier automatic corrections are OFF. That usually gets pretty faithful results as our LP5000 is calibrated off a test print every day and with every new roll of paper.
If you have a walk-in rather than mail order lab, they should be willing enough to print with corrections off as long as you tell them. It's not at all difficult to do as long as they are employing properly trained staff instead of €8.65/hr monkeys ;)
The only filters that are applied as default with our Frontier software are automatic redeye reduction and overall scene adjustment (which is somewhat like auto levels in Photoshop). I don't think it takes any notice of EXIF data though.
By the way, always output files for minilabs either with sRGB profile or no profile, as I believe Frontiers strip out profiles like AdobeRGB or ProPhoto, thus changing the colours. Some pro labs will offer you colour profiles to download to match their equipment, so use those if you can.
The bottom line is to talk to your printer and get the right information before spending your money. We offer the no-adjustments option to many of our more clued-up customers and the pics always look much better, as they've already done ther own post-pro and know how they want the prints to look.
And make sure your monitor is calibrated, or at least set up right with the OS control panel.
Originally posted 2 months ago.
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SteveFE edited this topic 2 months ago.
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Emteehed the only way to get your pictures developed as you processed them is by removing exif data, but still the color quality remains a problem.
Liαnnα thanks, I will try that!, the website looks very promising! I will report my experiences.
SteveFE thanks for your lengthy comment, this is a whole new world for me. Most online print labs that I know of do not offer the adjustments off option, but its worth a try.
The thing with the color profiles is also new to me, can you add these to the export options in lightroom? no idea how this works...
I spend some time looking for comparisons people made between printing services, and I was amazed by the (disappointing) results, so much difference between companies!
for dutch speaking people, this seems to be a good test (although a bit nerdy) :
home.zonnet.nl/kerkenwereld/printservicetest/printservice...
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willemmas edited this topic 2 months ago.
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You must have a city centre Fuji lab or similar where you can walk in? Ours is in a small town in rural Ireland!
It's supposed to be a self-service place where the customer uploads their own photos through the kiosk (and gets all the auto corrections applied automatically), but it's often just as easy for us to put the files straight into the back end of the print server and do the manipulation or lack of it ourselves.
You have to understand that Fujifilm and probably every other minilab operator, including the non-pro online ones, is mainly interested in the mass market, which unfortunately is 99% badly exposed pics from crappy p'n's digicams used on the green box setting with no input or expertise from the user at all! We often do a quite remarkable job of rescuing appalling horrible snapshots and turning them into half-decent pics.
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Find a printer that understands what "turn off auto correction" actually means when you tell them that.
Seriously.
Also make sure you tag your file with the colour profile you worked on it. (usually sRGB or AdobeRGB) with out a colour profile on the image file your just asking for trouble from the printer.
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as the old saying goes "if you want something done right do it yourself"
The only way to get prints just like you want is if you print them yourself. There are many great printers and paper options out there these days
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also make sure your monitor is calibrated
it could be that they have printed it as is and its just your monitor thats out
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eye of wally are you making a joke? Do you mean that I can make better prints with my XXX hundred Euro printer than someone with a professional XXX thousand euro printer ?????
DOM ® thanks for this suggestion but my monitor is calibrated, and by the way, i am not looking very critical, it is VERY obvious that there is a big difference.
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You should be able to find a lab that doesn't do any auto-corrections - my lab only does corrections at added cost. And you need to use the color profile the lab uses - most often sRGB. Also, if your monitor is not setup correctly you may not be seeing an accurate depiction of what you'll get back from the lab even if they're not touching the files and you specify the correction profile. Once you get into printing, everything counts.
And yes, printing yourself on a high quality Epson ink jet printer will give you great results. But it can be quite a hassle.
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I agree with Wally and that points to something some of us have been saying here for years: If you put all of your time and energy into taking pictures and processing them and leave the printing to someone else or treat it as an afterthought, you're missing out on an important part of the photography process.
There's nothing wrong with outsourcing printing but there's also nothing wrong with doing it yourself.
Sam's right, it takes some learning on the printing end but hey, you're putting the time in on the shooting end, why not learn how to make a nice, archival print? Maybe even learn to frame it yourself.
Canon and Epson and HP all make excellent, mid to high end printers that will make incredible prints.
And, once you have this process worked out it can be just as fast and easy as taking and processing pictures.
I find it amazing that few of you balk at spending $1000 on a lens but won't spend more than a few hundred bucks on a printer and buy the cheapest photo paper at Costco.
If you put some time and energy into the printmaking end of the photography process you will not be disappointed.
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I always encourage people to print their stuff out - whether it's at home or Wal-Mart. It really changes your perception of what you're doing, and the perception of what really "matters" in a photo. The minutiae we sometimes fret over in terms of pixel-level sharpness, etc. become less important when we're looking at prints instead of pixels.
The thing ultimately that I didn't like about printing my own stuff is the maintenance aspect of it - it can be a lot of work to keep an ink jet printer working if you're not printing regularly. I'd rather spend my time shooting than cleaning heads and replacing cartridges. ;)
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I've used Photobox before and if you calibrate your monitor correctly and check it against their test print the results that come back are pretty faithful, better and possibly cheaper than doing it myself on my std. A4 printer :).
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thanks for the replies so far! I learned a lot!
I searched and found out that there is a Fujifilm Frontier fotolab at walking distance of my house!!! SteveFE thaks very much for your insights!
Now I have to become friends with the owners, so I can use their equipment cheap :) no seriously, they seem to be knowing what they are doing.
I am looking forward to more of your insights...
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Be aware that some Frontier setups are "locked down" so that the operators cannot override the auto-correction functionality, so you should ask the operators if they have the right level of control.
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Thanks, I will have to check that, I have a good feeling about this though; they seem to be rather advanced since they also offer "professional quality service" with prints on Fujifilm Crystal Archive paper and with personal support for professional photographers (they have color profiles available, and they offer personal hands on development. (this was a real surprise since they have only a very small shop... it never occurred to me that they did all this)
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Crystal Archive paper is standard for Frontier-equipped labs, and it's the main reason I've stopped buying inkjet cartridges.
When you know your photo's been exposed by light onto real emulsion paper, and the image is fixed into it in the halide crystals rather than sitting as a surface layer of congealed pigment, you feel pretty smug about how long your prints are going to last ;)
Besides that, the prints don't mark when handled (not on lustre paper anyway; gloss picks up fingerprints like crazy, but at least the gloss doesn't scratch off at the drop of a hat the way inkjet prints do).
Glad you found a good local place Willemmas. It's well worth paying a little more than online if they value your business and take the trouble to get your prints right. I can't speak for the NL, but here we give pretty substantial discounts for regular trade customers (and can afford to: the margins on lightjet printing are phenomenal, but I never said that, right? ;)
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I've had good results with SmugMug, though the pricing for a "pro" account can be a bitch. Images I've received from them seem to look just like I sent them in.
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eye of wally are you making a joke? Do you mean that I can make better prints with my XXX hundred Euro printer than someone with a professional XXX thousand euro printer ?????
no joke that is exactly what I am saying. The professional XXX thousand euro printer is designed to do high volume work of hundreds if not thousands of prints a day, so that is what it does, the systems are not designed for real precision work, while you often can get very nice prints from them if you have a good profile, and their machine has fresh chemistry, and a operator who knows what they are doing most of the time it will be on full auto and print to a standard that 99% of the people who just want snaps from little Johnny's party printed up will be quite happy with.
I totally agree with Richard when he said "I find it amazing that few of you balk at spending $1000 on a lens but won't spend more than a few hundred bucks on a printer and buy the cheapest photo paper at Costco." I would add that having a good monitor that is calibrated with a good hardware calibrator is as an important step that people miss.
As for me I am now and have been for many years a B&W guy. I print out my B&W work at home using an Epson Printer and a dedicated B&W Ink system from MIS Associates. Home printing opens up a whole new world with hundreds of paper choices and many different inksets. Giving me far more control and better results than ever got working in the darkroom.
On the other hand I am not nearly as picky with color stuff, and I outsource those usually to Mpix (here in America) or sometimes even my local Wal-Mart.
At the end of the day it is like the choice between using the kit lens or a $1,000 L lens. The kit lens will take great shots that are more than adequate for most users, eventually some people discover that the kit lens is holding them back so they invest in better lenses. The same thing is with printing. With a little care most people will be quite happy with lab prints, eventually some people will find that lab prints are holding them back from their vision so they will take steps to improve them. The first step is a good monitor that is calibrated, the next step is to have a color managed workflow from the camera to the print using icc profiles and soft-proofing images. The final step is to print at home with a good profiled printer with good inks and good paper.
One final thought I will add that is that just as Sam said no matter what you should print out your work on regular basis. Even if it is just cheapy 4x6s at Wal-Mart or the corner drug store, and then keep these in an album to go back and look at from time to time
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im with wally here , i print my own .that way if it f***s up ,its my fault ;))
and i get my paper sent to me from a great company in texas too . it costs a bit more to me but i find the results much better than average.
Originally posted 2 months ago.
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jay_wilkie351971 edited this topic 2 months ago.
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It is infinitely cheaper to get it printed elsewhere. If you properly edit the photograph yourself and you have properly used color management in your process, your photographs should be spot-on every time. The reason the OP ran nto problems is because he didn't specify that he didn't want color processing from the photo lab.
I order my photographs from MPix,com and they always give me an option to check a box that say "Do not color correct my photograph." Most good labs do offer this option. And then if the photograph comes back differently than what you ordered, then it's your fault.
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is it a very noticeable difference between using srgb color space, adobe rgb, or a specific color profile of a photolab, if you print on lets say 20X30 cm format?
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Don't some labs offer ICC profiles you can download for soft proofing as well?
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Johnny Blood you are probably right about the advantages of getting your stuff printed elsewhere, I think doing it at home is not an option for me. I do not completely agree with you on the check box "Do not color correct my photograph." Most online uploading/delivering amateur labs I encountered in the Netherlands do not offer this option. they do a lot of corrections. More importantly, the colos schemes in the different photolabs work differen, the quality of the colors seems to vary substantively, and thats what also bothers me..
the more I get to know about this, the more I am surprised that this is not discussed regularly on flickr, people here tend to spend so much money on equipment, and do not spend/bother to care about printing services....
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Emteehed, by now i found several labs that provide ICC profiles, but I have no clue what to do with them... btw, what's soft spoofing?
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Assuming you've got your color management correct from monitor calibration all the way to printer profiles and paper, it's sort of a 'preview' to the printed outcome. I'm not sure how well soft proofing works or how accurate it is compared to the print, but I do know the option is there in Photoshop.
I've tried making my own prints before, but just horrible outcomes. I've got the correct printer profiles and paper but my soft proofs look nothing like my prints. I think possibly because my monitor isn't hardware calibrated. Only adobe gamma. But then again, I could be totally off on this too. Plus I figure I don't want to waste so much ink just trying to get the colors correct for one photo. May as well get one of those LCD picture frames. (talking about me personally)
If you use photoshop. Just put the downloaded profiles into the same folder as the others are in. If you've got windows would probablly be something 'like' c:\programfiles\commonfiles\adobe\color\profiles
Originally posted 2 months ago.
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Emteehed edited this topic 2 months ago.
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what's soft spoofing
soft proofing is using software to simulate on screen when your finished image will look like. Each paper and ink or paper and chemistry combination produces a slightly different look especially when you add the third variable of different machines that do the printing. The main difference being how bright the white of the paper is and if it is pure white or slightly off white cream which makes the image warmer or slight blue which would make the image cooler just like a white balance only on paper. The other main variable is how dense the blacks will print on the paper and each paper is different. Since the image can not be any darker than the deepest black that gets printed or any lighter than the white of the paper itself you are limited to that as your dynamic range. Densities and paper warmth can also effect how other colors look besides white and black, also certain paper and ink combos can produce far more colors than others or the C41 process used on papers like Fuji Crystal Archive in a Fuji Frontier which has a more limited color gamut than say a 9 ink Epson Printer.
So ICC profiles are made for each combo, then using a program like Photoshop you soft proof using the ICC profiles to see what the final image will look like.
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I think possibly because my monitor isn't hardware calibrated. Only adobe gamma. But then again, I could be totally off on this too
nope you are spot on. Adobe Gamma is better than nothing but it is far different than hardware calibration, this is even more true if you have an LCD and not a CRT
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I wonder if there will be a day when people walk into photo galleries and instead of seeing huge prints of amazing photos you will see huge framed LCD screens with some amazing photos. Like HDRi's in there true form. Hah! probably not. How would you buy that?
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The best quality print out are the 10-12 colour inkjet printers with the right media. They will beat the photodeveloper everytime if you do it right. I use Qimage Pro software to print on HP Z3100 24in large format printer on HP photo matt paper and get great results.
It is great to see a print instead of on screen as it looks much better.
Originally posted 2 months ago.
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GavinZ edited this topic 2 months ago.
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For the show I did a couple months ago, I went to Costco... they do amazing prints... but the best part is, if you take your files to the store, you can tell them not to do any corrections.
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I've been using Mpix. Excellent quality quick turnaround and check box that says do no post processing.
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I really think Gavin (and Wally and Sam, etc.) have it.
For those of you who doubt that "home printing" on an inkjet printer outdoes or certainly equals the best photolabs, check out the work of: Bill Atkinson.
Besides being one of the "fathers" of the Macintosh computer, he's considered one of the fathers of color management.
You may not like his photography (or you may) but his printing is considered the best around. He uses high end Epson ink jet printers.
He also does workshops on color management and high end ink jet printing: Printing Workshops.
My point is simply that he does his own printing as do many photographers who work at his level.
You can learn a bit more about this stuff on Michael Reichmann's site: Luminous Landscape. Yes, he's a bit of a blowhard but his video journals on fine art printing are fantastic.
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Do printers need to be calibrated too?
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the mini lab i go to charges for auto correction(and cropping too) 10c a photo, click no and i get what i want and save a bit of change
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ill go to wanderman printing in warren, ct if i need something bigger than 8x10 or if i need a fine art print :)
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Looking at an online photo of a print book isn't really very useful.
Personally I'm happy with what I get from Adorama. Most of the time acceptable, cheap, and easy beats top-quality. I have little desire to try to become a world-class artisan printer; the cost-reward ratio just isn't there for me. I have a friend who is one, and I'd go to him if I really needed it.
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I'm sure there are printers that can rival commercial photo labs, but in the grand scheme of things, is it really a wise investment? And how many printers can print exceptionally large sizes? And then throw into the mix the cost of keeping paper on hand (various types), ink (which can clog up some printers if not used on a regular basis), etc. is it really worth it? For some, yes. For me, I'd rather find a lab I can trust and save the money and the investment.
And yes, even printers are calibrated.
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@jb: i would say that learning to print is an investment in yourself as you learn a new discipline
from reading some wedding books, i see that for print competitions, most photogs go to a handful of well known master printers
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And how many printers can print exceptionally large sizes?
how often do you get prints larger than 13 inches on the short side? I can go 13" on the short side and unlimited on the long side but rarely print bigger than 11x17. An 11x17 when matted and framed is quite large to hang on a wall. Most of what I print is 8x10 or 8x8
is it really a wise investment?
depends, is buying a nice lens a wise investment when the kit lens or the nifty fifty can take nice pictures? Or even buying a $1200 DSLR when a $200 P&S takes nice pictures
printing is like everything else in a photography, there is always going to be a compromise between economy and performance. If you want the best results you need to do as much of the work as you can yourself. For 99.9% of the world that means popping their SD card into a kiosk and printing off of jpegs. For others it means calibrating their monitors, for others it means having a complete color managed system and sending profiled images off to a pro lab, for others it means printing in house. There is no right or wrong answer or way to do things, it depends on what you want.
Originally posted 2 months ago.
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eye of wally edited this topic 2 months ago.
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wow this issue really opened my eyes to a whole new element in photography. From what I learn from you guys the universe looks a lot like the photo universe.
The more you invest, the more control over quality, although without a good photographic eye your results suck
Also similar with photography, there is a personal "sweet spot", an optimal quality improvement/investment ratio.
for me it is probably a too large investment to go for private printing with a top of the bill setup.
For me a local photolab can be good for quality prints probably, together with screen calibration hardware for my mediocre/good philips 190X screen and some investments in processing software (lightroom).
For now i will stick with adobe rgb/ srgb profiles, since I cannot afford a version of photoshop to handle icc profiles. From what I understand, the extra improvement I get by controlling ICC profiles myself is not that great, especially because I found a good print service that converts my adobe RGB/srgb color space to their ICC profile. (wow what a language, i learned a lot nerdy things this day :)
by the way i found a useful link to a lot of information on color management (haven't read it all though :). learn.adobe.com/wiki/display/LR/About+color+management+in...
Originally posted 2 months ago.
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willemmas edited this topic 2 months ago.
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I print 13x19 on my HP 9180 at home. The media is expensive but works great. Both the 9180 and Z3100 large format has built in gretag macbeth color calibration systems. I calibrate my LCD screens with Eye One, but they are not very high quality screen. I am thinking of buying a new higher quality LCD screen to get better gamut matching etc.
If you like prints then having a 13x19in printer at home is a good idea. You have to invest in framing too of course. Its not that difficult once you have the right stuff. High end home printer prints better than off set press but they cannot print thousands of books etc. I do use photobook services from photobook malaysia www.photobook.com.my/
After saying all this, most people cannot tell the differences.
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from what I have heard blurb is also pretty good for printing books isnt it?
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All this is great if you live in one place. I, however, have moved countries 4 times in the past 7 years. I simply find a good local photolab and make friends there to get my prints (mainly the large format ones now.)
Never forget the value of personal contact with a good local business.
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I always go local and tell them not to mess with my stuff! You pay a couple of bucks more, but you do get what you order and you can make test prints before printing big.
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willemmas how did you find the Fujifilm Frontier fotolab in holland? i live in amsterdam but all i know is about hema and the like and i really deslike the way the print my photos, makes everything look much darker somehow
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shatteredisguise edited this topic 2 months ago.
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i live in amsterdam but all i know is about hema and the like and i really deslike the way the print my photos, makes everything look much darker somehow
Do other labs print them "correctly". The point that's been made many times here is that if you're getting bad results from a lab, it's not necessarily their fault - if your machine is not setup correctly the problem could be you.
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humm i can see my pictures on 3 different monitors(2 at home and 1 at work) and still when i print them they are way darker...
i dont know if it would help if i would buy a calibration device but i cant afford one right now, thats why i was hoping for a good lab advice :s
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shatteredisguise thats because they mess with the pictures! Fujifilm Frontier fotolab is a lab system a lot of local photostores use, I went to the website of my local photostore and discovered it..
I got some recommendations for high quality print services from another group too, expensive, but quality..
in amsterdam:
www.kleurgamma.nl/
in utrecht:
www.colorutrecht.nl/index.php
both services also print/stick the pictures on foam board/ aluminum, canvas and more...
as the best online service people recommended me www.profotonet.nl (good quality, no automatic processing but a bit pricey)
I ordered the above image at profotonet too and just received it, I must say, it looks MUCH better than the one I ordered from the blokker service, I am really happy with it.. (more lively colors, LESS DARK and more detail)
Still it does not match my computer screen perfectly, but this has more to do with the calibration of my screen than with their quality...
So now I have
1) a good service where I can make TOP quality large prints, also on hard surfaces.
2)a good online service for quality prints that delivers
I still need a good place to go to for cheap ass prints that I can use to improve my skills/bulk prints. Preferably one that does not change anything on my prints grrr...
There is not such an online service in the Netherlands, so I probably have to make a deal with my local photo store. They can make cheap prints and turn automatic corrections off for me probably...
Originally posted 2 months ago.
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willemmas edited this topic 2 months ago.
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I just made these on my printer. If it looks out of focus it's because of the photo and not the printer. Looks pretty darn close to on screen though.
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any of you guys use those monitor calibrators? are they a good investment?
Posted 3 weeks ago.
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I use a monitor calibrator and tell the lab NOT to color correct. I get what I see on my monitor.
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Hi again Skyton -- If I may ask what lab do you use?
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I mainly use H&H Color lab. WHCC, Millers, Delano Color and Bay Photo are all top notch pro labs. MPIX is probably one of the best amateur labs. Believe it or not, Costco is right up there among the best if you're looking for a local lab.
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