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Vale Council, S Wales, Votes Tonight on Banning Photography In Parks and Gardens
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Yes, way ahead of the government the Vale Council are voting tonight on whether or not to ban photography in parks and gardens. Allegedly it is to stop paedophiles photographing kids (rampant paranoia), but, if you get permission and give them some money you will be allowed to.
Are votes secrete or can we find out who voted to ban photography in parks and gardens so that we would know not to vote for these totalitarian fascists ever again?
Posted at 3:08AM, 27 February 2007 PDT
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Sorry but I think its madness banning photography, just my opinion though.
Posted 15 months ago.
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Is this for real? On this rationale, you may as well ban photography altogether then.
Posted 15 months ago.
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Ban art, music is too noisy and is full of subliminal peadophilic messages, photography is for peadophiles, painting is for shy peadophiles, film is for hardcore peadophiles. Art is evil, it must be banned from our society!*
*the above should be taken with large amounts of sarcasm, I understand that this disclaimer takes away comic effect, but without it I risk being sued, arrested, sued again, and other such legal loopholes associated with "free speach"
Originally posted 15 months ago.
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alyn_smith edited this topic 15 months ago.
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I was pretty convinced the Number 1O petition was just a scare story until I heard this. So I've signed, it's pretty worrying and have already been in situations where Ive been approached by "security" at public events like Cardiff's Big Weekend. Not sure I liked their implications.
Best sign the petition here is a link
petitions.pm.gov.uk/Photography/
Up to 36000 signatures, we'll need lots more.
Posted 15 months ago.
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I've forwarded it on to everyone I can, and obviously signed it myself.
It's one of the craziest things I've ever heared. If it gets past, the only solution is a mass revoult! Or a protest.
Posted 15 months ago.
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Angel:
Whoever said councillors were sane? :-)
Lostunfound:
Yes, it's for real. It was announced on Bridge FM Radio this morning although I have not heard or read prior announcements about the upcoming vote. It seems to have been pounced on us giving no time for any feed-back.
Rob's Pages:
That petition is for the the governments UK proposal, it could be voted out yet the Vale Council could vote it in for all Vale parks and gardens and there seems to be no way to petition them about it with this surprise vote.
Posted 15 months ago.
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Where will we find out the result of the vote and when??
Posted 15 months ago.
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it's ridiculous. how in the world is this going to reduce peadophilia in any way? do children usually run around naked in parks?
stupid.
Posted 15 months ago.
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Thanks, Canopus Archives. I had taken time out of my, um, 'busy schedule' to try to get in touch with the council and local press to confirm this but to no avail thus far. Am emailing a Western Mail journalist this link to see if we can get the ball rolling...
Someone from the council is going to come back to me, so she says.
It's not that I don't believe what you're saying, but I'd like to find out if any such ban would be specific to a particular area of parks, or one park where loitering men in macs (with Macs and long lenses) have been a pest.
I have seen such a grim individual, a couple of years ago on Brighton pier and it was clear what he was up to (quite how I spotted him and my girfriend was wholly oblivious says quite a lot about me, probably! It should also be noted that he wasn't trying to take photos of my girlfriend, who is very much an adult.) He was photographing very young girls on funfair rides. I reported him, but the security already seemed aware of his presence and were preparing to eject him. If I'd been a braver man, I'd have confronted him myself. I had visions of a lynch mob then throwing him off the side of the pier, which is nothing less than he deserved, I suppose.
Going back to the matter in hand, surely there has to be some sort of public debate before such a big step is taken - assuming it's a blanket ban across all the parks?
Furthermore, if the ban gets passed, I suggest an immediate Flickr meet in one of the parks affected by the ban. Cameras in hand.
Originally posted 15 months ago.
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Lostunfound edited this topic 15 months ago.
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Lostunfound:
Can't find any mention about it on the Vale Council site www.valeofglamorgan.gov.uk/ yet.
I like your suggestion of a Flickr meet with cameras in one of the parks if it does get passed. Imagine the publicity if we were to all get arrested, could even take some interesting photos of the mass arrest as I'm sure the news media throughout the world would be interested.
Posted 15 months ago.
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I can't understand how such a ban would work if everyone (including photographers) are completely oblivious to it's existence. But either way, I'm up for meeting up with camera gear and going photo mad, parks, eispecially in cities where there isn't much other greenery, are great artistic photo sights!
Originally posted 15 months ago.
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alyn_smith edited this topic 15 months ago.
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I have now spoken with Adam, at Bridge FM's news desk and with the Vale of Glamorgan Council. It seems the meeting will take place this evening at 6pm and is open to the public, though the public will be unable to say anything unless they raise their objections/reservations with a counsellor prior to the meeting.
"A report on adopting a policy for photographing, filming and other forms of imaging of children in Vale parks and open spaces is due to be considered by a Council Scrutiny (Economy and Environment) Committee tonight but will need to be ratified or otherwise by the Council Cabinet at a later date," says Ralph Phillips, Press Officer.
From talking to the council and the reporter, they were adamant that it is not the case that the council are seeking to ban outright photography in the Vale's parks.
What they are exactly trying to do is, however, less clear. It would appear that 'rangers' will police areas (presumably not on a full-time basis) and approach people who they deem to be suspicious and who have been seen to be taking lots of photos around children.
Now, the key words here are "deem" and "lots". This proposed heightened level of bureaucratic approach in protecting our children in public places will rely on park rangers using their discretion. This is of course a grey area and open to abuse. And just because I sometimes wander around a public space, alone, camera around neck, a solitary male - I don't want to be seen as suspicious thank you very much (I already am made to feel a bit of a freak as it is).
But then, I don't take photos of children - certainly not "lots" of photos. Anyone taking lots of photos of other people's kids would rightly arouse suspicion and concern among parents.
As for these 'ranger'-types, I don't suppose they'd have any powers above that of a normal parkie.
The "licence" suggestion (which a very friendly Ms Harding of the council suggested was "more of a form really") is an option whereby members of the public could fill it in and presumably get it stamped by the council, so that if approached in a park they could show that their relationship between themselves and the 'subject'/child in their care is legitimate. Probably this is unworkable and a waste of time, mostly because people will object to this level of official interfering in their lives. You can imagine offering to take your neighbours kids along with yours to the park. You grab the camera and then think "Oh shoot, I only have a licence to photograph Rupert, but not Jemima". It's ludicrous.
The council already has a policy in place banning photography in leisure centres and the like, which is a good thing. It does seem that there is a need to protect children in public places and their security should be our collective priority, but I can't help but feel that this is a sympton of the Nanny State. Have cameras or the predilicitons of humans changed so much in such a short space of time that these new regulations need to be introduced now?
(I don't have children, but if I did they wouldn't be called either Rupert or Jemima.)
Originally posted 15 months ago.
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Lostunfound edited this topic 15 months ago.
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BBc, ITV, Sky.....Mirror, Sun and Mail ....what a meeting this would be!
Posted 15 months ago.
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The Western Mail is now covering the story thanks to this Discussion. I'm told it'll be in tomorrow's paper.
Posted 15 months ago.
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Thanks for the info Lostunfound
Posted 15 months ago.
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Hey lostunfound, you've done a great job here. I had to work this afternoon so couldn't do any research, but, did here another announcement from Bridge FM where they interviewed the leader of the council, I think her name was Margaret something. She said it was an extension of previous legislation they passed which for protection of children forbids parents from taking photos of their kids on sports days, swimming galas and school concerts. Very understandable, there must be very many paedophile parents that want to take photos of their and other parents kids fully clothed at school concerts.
Meanwhile, looking at what you've written I can't help feeling it will be a little more than what she implied. Why? Well, already officials can do what she implies. Jeeze, when I worked in Dyffryn Gardens even us lowly gardeners kept our eye open for untoward activities, had words with people and called for security back-up if necessary.
As far as permissions are concerned, does this mean we have to pre-plan our days out and ask for written permission way ahead of events?
And as for lots of people including tourists not knowing then perhaps a publicity campaign which included posting notices on the borders of the Vale informing people they cannot take photos in public places within the Vale without this permission is in order :-)
What gets me is the hypocrisy of it all. We wouldn't be able to take photos in open spaces, but, they have given themselves the power for one of their officers to enter our houses and take photos inside them for proof of improvements so as to be able to raise our council tax.
Wish I could get to the meeting. Do you think they allow us to take cameras in? ;-)
Whoops, I think I may have said the wrong thing, I'm sure I just saw the local surveillance camera turn toward my house :-))
Posted 15 months ago.
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Canopus Archives 'Wish I could get to the meeting. Do you think they allow us to take cameras in? ;-)'
Haha, good call!
It's one of the most insane things I've ever heared, I can understand not taking photos in a swimming pool because everyone is running around semi naked, although my parents have loads of pictures of our family swimming when me and my brother where young. And it's ok to take pictures of a school concert if you get written permission from EVERY parent. That's a pain, because ALL kids want to see these pictures afterwards, and one parent can ruin it for everyone, but at least people know it's comming so they can plan these forms and send them out. But, like has already been said, people DO spontaniously decide to go to the park with their kids, and the kids do expect them to take photos. IT MAKES ME MAD, MAD I TELL YOU!
I don't have kids, and I don't spend my time taking photographs of kids either, but I have taken pictures of duck ponds, which do have kids around the edge, as well as parents, feeding the ducks, should I be locked up for this? They're not the subject of the photo.
Hell, look at my photos from Nepal, there's loads of pictures of kids there because those kids love having their photo taken, infact it was almost impossible to NOT take photographs of kids there.
It's getting to the point where we should be affraid to walk down the street incase wo get accused of following someone, affraid to take photographs incase we get accused of photographing children, affraid to work in any form of service industry incase we get sued for doing our job, affraid to prevent people from burgling our houses incase we get arrested for assault. THE COUNTRY HAS GONE MAD!
Lostunfound Respect to you, you've done loads! I wish I could say I've done more than rant and sign the petition, but I have far too much uni work to do.
Posted 15 months ago.
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There now follows a set of opinions that I wish merely to get out in the open.
This country has indeed gone mad but it happened a long time ago and we are allowing it to happen to ourselves ever more each week.
As a photographer and father of two small children i do have some fors and againsts for this ruling. But, like most situations in this country we have laws where we once had people that used to step in. Responsible members of 'communities'. Remember what that is everyone? A community? One where people know each other, where they speak to their neighbours? Where they help each other and give a toss?
Despite some of the very sensible and responsible views of people in here and many other places besides, it is also 'people' that seem unable anymore to want to stand up for decency, good manners, respect etc etc.
Whether that is all because of a few high-profile have a go heroes who have come a cropper I don't know. But I fear it might be because people are increasingly switching off from the outside world and turning in on themselves. Choosing to turn the other cheek because they dont want to get involved. Or, more likely, because the authorities dont support them when they do.
I for one have no problem telling a yob chucking glass bottles around in my local park to think about what he is doing and put them in the bloody bin instead.
I don't even mind being abused or told to mind my own f**king business when I ask
'Do you honestly think your child will behave, respect you or listen to you if you yourself behave like that?'
..when someone is being way over the top, bullying, screaming and swearing at their kids in public in an attempt to control their behaviour.
I am not perfect but I was brought up properly and because of that at least my kids are polite and behave themselves in public. When they are at home they can let go. I wasnt brought up to be an interfering busy-body but to care, to want to help, to want to be involved with the people I share my house, village, town or city with.
So, perhaps if more people gave a shit about their communities enough to be able to know when a stranger is there in a park taking photos when maybe he or she ought not to be, then we might not need laws to step in.
One day people are saying 'Cor, effing nanny state' and the next they are saying 'well, the government should do more'.
You can't have it both ways.
Folks, as I see it we are increasingly getting the country we deserve and until the majority are again prepared to stand up and say 'Hey, mate, what are you doing?' when they see someone behaving badly or disrespectfully or illegally, then I think we are truly lost.
Oh, and by the way, it has been law in France for years that if you want to take pictures of people in public you need to ask their permission. It doesnt get policed in a draconian way but it is the law.
This in a country with a history of embracing art, liberty, brotherhood and socialism.
But, even with that law in place, I have never been accosted by the authorities in France for taking pictures of people in public. The law is simply there if needed. Like most things, it is the interpretation and enforcement of law that is the problem not always the law itself.
Labour and the Tories before them have done almost everything necessary to make the UK a police state. It may not be one now but all it needs is a flick of the switch that Blair has finished installing and we have all the laws necessary for one. And I am not sure precisely how we have allowed this to happen.
One theory is that in our information rich society we all have shorter memories, overloaded as they are with so much info evry minute of every day. Such that we all forget what one politician promises us one year enough to let them do the complete opposite the following year without it registering.....
Anyway, could go on for hours.... but probably better not.
Originally posted 15 months ago.
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Alfie in Japan edited this topic 15 months ago.
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"One theory is that in our information rich society we all have shorter memories, overloaded as they are with so much info evry minute of every day. Such that we all forget what one politician promises us one year enough to let them do the complete opposite the following year without it registering....."
That's pretty much how they did it in Orwel's "1984", they changed the names of who they where at war with, said the chocolate ration was going down to the same amount it already was and then said it was going back up to the same figure again, etc etc, it's a cliche to say it, but it's scary how much like that book the country is becoming.
You say there is a lack of people defending the community so we need laws, but it's a vicious cycle, there are laws which make people affraid to do that, if someone breaks into your house or pulls a knife on you in the street and you hit them, even though it's self defense, you get arrested for assault.
They made a verry good example of it on one of the soaps my mum watches, I think it was coronation street, a couple of years back, where some kid was caught shoplifting, the old lady who ran the shop gave the kid a clip round the ear and then got sued by the kids mother for beating the kid, she had to pay out £200 to this kids parents. If I'd had a clip round the ear for shop lifting when I was that age my parents would have murdered me and appologised to the shop.
Jumping back to the issue of telling youths to stop being idiots, I've tried, I've told people not to smoke on the bus etc, sometimes they appologise and listen, sometimes they don't, but I'll only do it if there is a large number of people around, I've been beaten up in the past for simply comming out of a rock concert, thankfully it's only happened the once, when I was 16, but it shakes you up and destroys your confidence for confrontation with people who look a certain way.
Thankfully my parents braught me up properly and at least I can recognise the madness which is going on.
Sorry, I'm not trying to contest you for longest post, I'm enjoying this discussion. :)
Originally posted 15 months ago.
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alyn_smith edited this topic 15 months ago.
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Anyone know the result of the vote? Do we need to prepare ourselves for a mass meet in a Vale park, swat up on Gandhi tactics and invite Al Gazhera along? :-)
Posted 15 months ago.
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@Canopus Archives Thanks for bringing this to our attention
@Lostunfound Thanks for doing all the legwork to find out what's going on.
Being a resident of the Vale, I've contacted the councillors for my ward so they can explain what is proposed and tell me what the result of the vote was.
If you live in the Vale, the contact details for your councillors can be found here
I find this an alarming development. I saddened that we live in a society where every person is treated with suspicion and our rights are being restricted. Why is it a wrong for an individual to carry a camera and take pictures in a lawful and responsible way, but it's perfectly OK for government and business to film us as we go about everyday life? *sigh*
Posted 15 months ago.
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It's insane. I don't live in the vale, I'm a gog, but presumably it's a national thing and it's going to head up north and get us soon enough.
Posted 15 months ago.
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It's like being down the pub and putting the world to rights this thread, isn't it? And just as effective, I hear you cry! The advantage is that everyone says what they want without being interrupted. The disadvantage is of course there's no booze.
Firstly, thanks to all who recognised my labours the other day. I was clearly fired up!
I agree with many comments and opinions above - people need to take responsibility, and the state needs to allow people to shoulder more personal responsibility. However, I would like to think (and this discussion suggests as much, as does the opinion of the incredulous Western Mail reporter who emailed me the other day) that many of us have yet to lose our minds. I would also like to think that this worrying trend will be reversed in time, when a more enlightened period looks back aghast at what we have done in the name of freedom and the protection of our citizens.
As for what the council decided, I have to say, I haven't discovered yet - probably because I have both a life and a job and so haven't had time. But to allay the fears once again of a couple of you, with the latest proposed ruling no one need apply for a licence to take photos. They are not banning photography or suggesting you cannot take your camera to the park on the weekend. Whether this is the innocuous and thin end of a large and sinister wedge that will ultimately come between us and our liberty, who's to say? Let's hope sense prevails.
Originally posted 15 months ago.
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Lostunfound edited this topic 15 months ago.
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The No 10 petition is now up to 42,994 signatures!
Posted 15 months ago.
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The Penarth times rang me for a quote yesterday as they are running a story on this. Later in the day they rang back to say that the proposal had been thrown out, the story will still run in the paper though. Penarth Times this thursday 01.03.07 I believe??
I wonder how you'd police people with mobile phone camera's?
Posted 15 months ago.
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Yes, Ben, it seems that we can lay this one to rest now. Just been emailed by a Western Mail reporter with the following:
"Thanks for the tip-off. We took great interest in this. It could have been a great story. Common sense won through though and they won't be implementing the ban."
While some might see this thread as a lot of fuss about nothing, given that nothing came of it, I think that our concerns/enquiries sparked by Canopus Archives' initial posting show that the council underestimated the media interest and public concern such a step would provoke. Perhaps our enquiries and those of the media made that afternoon helped in a small way to sway the decision too - you never know.
Originally posted 15 months ago.
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Lostunfound edited this topic 15 months ago.
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Yaay!
Posted 15 months ago.
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Great news!
Posted 15 months ago.
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Lostunfound:
When I heard the announcement from Bridge FM posting here was the first thing I thought about as it made me so angry. I had hoped that the posting and the shock of the announcement which I believed would surely come from Flickr members may have trickled through to the council etc. and over time the debate would help in a little way to put the brakes on this sort of thing, but, not in my wildest dreams did I think that what came about would have come about. I thank everybody and especially Lostunfound over this.
I feel a special thanks should go to Bridge FM as without their announcement it is quite possible that no one would have known of this vote and possibly it would have been passed.
In a world where freedom is being increasingly eroded by the powers-that-be in the name of freedom and so called safety at least some sanity has prevailed on this matter and Freedom raises its head in hope again.
Now what about this law that has just been passed that gives powers to the police to randomly stop motorists for no reason, breath test them and presumably demand they give their fingerprints to verify that they are who they say they are and not criminals... :-)
Posted 15 months ago.
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Fantastic news, still worth keeping an eye out incase other councils give it a go, but brilliant news!
Posted 15 months ago.
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Thanks Canopus Archives. It was pretty fortuitous that I happened to be on Flickr and that I saw your posting. And yes, Bridge FM were especially helpful when I called them out of the blue.
It's cool how what starts out as a rant and venting one's frustration can turn into action.
A celebratory drink might be in order where we can further pat backs and self-congratulate! I appreciate Alyn's in North Wales, but if anyone's in Cardiff and are interested, let me know. All the best.
Posted 15 months ago.
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I'd be into it, but, find it difficult getting to and from Cardiff by public transport except on weekends and then would have to leave fairly early. Saturday afternoons aren't bad and Easter is just around the corner.
Posted 15 months ago.
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Cheers for the offer, but obviously, like you point out, it's far too far for me to travel. :(
Posted 15 months ago.
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me too. I grew up in the Rhymney Valleys (village called Fochriw) but I'm in the North now (conwy)
Originally posted 15 months ago.
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notcatherinezeta edited this topic 15 months ago.
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Fochriw.... now there IS a desolate location, in the winter especially!
Posted 15 months ago.
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FWIW, on the original topic; I had a reply from my Councillor, Rob Curtis today stating that the paper would "not return in its current form" and that a "common sense approach" would be taken.
Posted 15 months ago.
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Awesome, yeah, I'm a Conwy lad too, well not the town, but the county, went to school in the town.
Posted 15 months ago.
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yes, Ben. That's why I am glad to be in Conwy! my folks are still there though so there's always the thrice yearly trips down to look forward to.
Posted 15 months ago.
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What about a Welsh summer camp meet? Low cost, lasts a week, get there when you can, spend as long as you like there...and rack your brains on how to recharge your batteries.
Posted 15 months ago.
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