(1 to 100 of 116 replies)
Guillermo - 11:38pm, 23 August 2008
Possible 5DMKII specs
"New FF from Canon:

1* new body design with integrated grip (just like 1D series but smaller)
2* ISO 100-12500

3* new processor (not digic III, may be digic IV or something completely new, I have no idea)

4* 6-8 fps (I don't know if both or either 6 or 8)
5* 3.2 inch lcd (not oled) and I don't know what resolution is

6* I don't know how many MP, my friend believes it is more than 15 MP but there is no certain number he'd tell. Personally I was hoping high-around 18 MP cam, may be it will be. Who knows!

7* Different name: not 3D, not 7D or 5D Mark II... something different; looks like it might have different names for Europe, USA and Asia (like kiss, xsi, d450 etc)

8* Timing: most likely they will wait for Sony's announcement for their 24 MP FF; first or second week of September."



===================** UPDATE!!**======================
just got this link passed to me for the 5DMKII possible specs

* 21.1 MP 1.0x
* ISO 100-6400 L:50 & H:12800
* 5 FPS
* 3.2" High Resolution Screen (LCD)
* 19 point AF
* HDMI Out
* Liveview
* HD Movie Mode
* Viewfinder: 100% Coverage
* Full weather sealing
* EF Lenses only
(1 to 100 of 116 replies)
rhel photography 13 years ago
i have herd is mebe 50D but i think that strenge
ripe images 13 years ago
hmm, interesting. cant wait till they actually get some photos of it or something. canon must be smiling everyday with all the hype that is around the new cameras. hopefully they can live up to it.
rhel photography Posted 13 years ago. Edited by rhel photography (member) 13 years ago
haha yes i think so. i think sy look like Mark III 1ds just smaller
BoldPuppy 13 years ago
Which AF system will it get?
Art- 13 years ago
The rumor mill churns and the frenzy builds along with the anticipation.
redundant ear [deleted] 13 years ago
I think putting it in the xxD line is more likely, something like the d700. I may have to get one though..doesnt really seem worth buying the 40D right now.
nsbkaizen 13 years ago
This is like passing a car wreck on the freeway.

Every time a 5D rumor thread starts I can't help but slow down and gawk like everyone else ;)
Guillermo - 13 years ago
It's funny how as days pass people including me get more into these rumours threads. I want to believe that this time the 5DMKII release is thru.. I just hope the camera is as incredibly awesome as the current 5D
Guillermo - 13 years ago
searching the web found some rumours that at photokina canon might unveil the 24-70mm F2.8L IS im going to stop reading that rumour page because im going nuts here hahah
Mormegil 13 years ago
Yeah, that's the lens I've been waiting for. If that 24-70 2.8L IS hits the streets, my 24-105 hitting E-Bay.

Any guestimates on a price? I'm thinking $1700 or so.
ripe images 13 years ago
well im waiting for the 24-70 IS I can get a 24-70 non IS on craigslist or ebay lol
scubapup 13 years ago
specs actually look yummy to me :)

i hope they put in the new info ergonomics plus the viewfinder blackout flipper
rhel photography 13 years ago
Here is one to about 50D and 5D

Specs leak on Canon 50D, 5D Mark II before Photokina
A forum member on a popular photography website recently posted what he believes are the preliminary specs for Canon's upcoming 5D Mark II and an all-new 50D digital SLRs. While the information cannot be treated as official or confirmed, it suggests the new 50D will sport a 12.2-megapixel APS-C sensor and Single Digic III Processor. The smaller sensor will allow the 50D to use lenses with the EFS mount in addition to Canon's EF-mount.
Rounding off the rumored features as they pertain to the 50D only is an ISO range of 100-3200, with a High setting of 6400, as well as a viewfinder that provides 100 percent coverage and 0.95 magnification.

The 5D Mark II replacement will up the full frame sensor's megapixel count from the current 5D's 12.8 to 16.7, and share the same Single Digic III processor of the 50D. As with the original, only EF-mount lenses will attach to the Mark II. The ISO settings range from 100-3200, with a Low setting of 50 and a High of 6400, matching earlier beliefs that the DSLR will be Canon's most light-sensitive to date. Its viewfinder offers 96 percent coverage along with 0.72 magnification.

Both DSLRs are rumored to share a new, 3-inch OLED LCD display, which would mark the first application of the OLED technology on a camera. They are also said to be capable of shooting at 6fps out of the box or 8fps if a grip is attached, and share an 11-point autofocus sensor with 35-zone metering. The same Live View
Patrick Engman 13 years ago
All I know is the new 5D predecessor BETTER surpass the current 5D in every single way possible. The current 5D is still a top camera and one would have a hard time justifying the purchase of the '5DMKII.'

So maybe, one of the reasons why Canon held off on the MKII is because the 5D set the standards. They really needed to do their homework...In order to make high sales, they need to surpass the 5D with much headway.

We all know what happened with the 20D and 30D, even 40D...You could settle with either model and not miss out on much.

Let's hope this doesn't happen again. But I have faith in Canon. I think they're going to unveil something truly superior.
nsbkaizen 13 years ago
One of the things I love most about the 5D is it's compact size. Not sure if I am interested in an integrated vertical grip unless it is very slim. It would actually be really cool if someone manufactured an ultra slim vertical grip, like half the width of the regular one - I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
Guillermo - 13 years ago
If the camera comes in a 1D type like body buying a grip will not be optional as it is already incorporated in the body, that might be pretty cool because than you dont neet to buy a grip on the side....

But if r.helgason is right than a grip would be needed to take advantage of those 8fps... sweet !!

If the 24-70 makes it IS @ 2.8 hopefully it doesn't add like 10 pounds extra to the lens, as ne non IS version is already a very heavy lens.
macsfstop 13 years ago
...I still like the current 5D's coffee-making skills. Sure, it could be a bit sweeter, but it's robust enough for me. If the next gen 5D actually brewed-to-taste, now THAT I might sign up for...
wow sounds like time to buy nikon.
de|me|tris: 13 years ago
IMHO those specs sound very optimistic.

A body of that spec would put it too close to the 1 series.

Canon's marketing men would have a fit.

Let's wait and see eh?
Photography by Sue 13 years ago
I agree with de|me|tris, there would have to be a distinct difference between the 5D and the 1DMarkIII for it to remain viable.
*Firefox 13 years ago
A spec that puts it close to the spec of the 1 series made no sense when there was no external full frame competition. Now that such competition does exist I wouldn't be so sure. Pros will hopefully still look to the 1 series for the weather sealing over a 5D mkII. Canon will be hoping though that it will be taking sales from the D700.
Adventures Into The Unknown Posted 13 years ago. Edited by Adventures Into The Unknown (member) 13 years ago
for the record the difference between 10/20/30d and 40d is huge - its called live view, makes manual focus and macro etc possible at weird angles without squinting(or buying a zigview) - and in-camera flash control and 14-bit raws
Guillermo - 13 years ago
Lol adventures that was a good one, im wondering what the price might be
de|me|tris: 13 years ago
It makes even less marketing sense to compete against your own products!

Canon haven't climbed to the heady heights of number 1 digital camera seller by making rash decisions based on what the opposition are punting.

Remember who created the full frame semi-pro market in the first place.

As I said let's wait and see Confucius....
Mormegil 13 years ago
Specs close to the 1 what?

Canon has a history of producing newer cameras that tread on the toes of the older higher tier cameras.

I still remember when nobody believed the rumors of the 300D, as it was too close to the 10D.

They know they'll sell more 5DmkII's than 1D anything, and money is the bottom line.

And they'd rather compete against themselves than against Nikon.
Guillermo - 13 years ago
Ok so the 50D specs and pictures are all over the place and the hype is on, ... hopefully today or later tomorrow some 5D pictures start flying around as well... POTN reported that Canon was going to give a press conference on tuesday ... hmmm i wonder :)
Jalexsmith 13 years ago
Press conference on Tuesday? Hmmm.
Guillermo - 13 years ago
Yes hopefully we get some pictures like we got them from the 50D
S Richards Photography 13 years ago
I would be very sad if they released the 24-70 f2.8 IS, cuz I just got the non-IS version. :-(
Mormegil 13 years ago
Press release will probably cover the 50D. It isn't official official yet.
ripe images 13 years ago
@lazerface i wouldnt worry, because the price used i bet wont drop, and the IS im guessing will cost at least 400 more. the way i look at it, is try to create images that your clients will pay for with it while you have the non IS, then you can sell it for almost no loss then upgrade :).

maybe im crazy. but if the 5dmk2 gets alot of hype and people start selling the old 5d's all over the place. I might just get one LOL. the 40d keeps on going down here in toronto. its now available for 1000 bucks for the body. brand new. thats 150 bucks less then a few weeks ago. sheesh. I remember when i had trouble competing with some photographers, because digital cameras that were cheap were 6 grand ( about a year after i finished college) that was for the fuji finepix s1 lol.

'waits to see what the new used price of the 5d is' lol
Guillermo - 13 years ago
@ mormegil: Hopefully they at least talk a bit about the 5D
Patrick Engman 13 years ago
Yeah on how it's pretty good and leave us hanging with broken hearts and begging minds.

Reporter: "Any news on the new 5D?"
Canon rep: " blows.."
Reporter: "Oh..well I wasn't expe..."
Canon rep: "My f**ing mind."
Reporter: "Awesome! High-5!"
Canon rep: "No."
thechrisproject 13 years ago
Ha! That's some funny shit.
A. Hyman Photography 13 years ago
im waiting for the new 5d to come out with the 24-70 is so i can get an even better deal on a 5d and a 24-70 non is lol
yeh 5d's are already at the £1000 mark, new one comes out and theyll be £6-700
ON another note I hear Brittany Spears is getting back with K-Fed. No really.

Sorry but speculation...schmeckulation. We need a thread about the new "inspiration" 2.0 that each of you has had and what your going out to shoot.


I'm out to shoot the sunset over Lake Mendota....
thephotophilic 13 years ago
If they want the model to out live the 5D in any way, it will have an iso of 50 - 3200. I doubt 6fps, more like 4fps, so it doesnt trample on the sports side of things.
Canon will love all of us, new models, new lenses, etc.

I actually stop with all of these, after invested more than 15K in equipment, im more interested in investing in myself. thats the only thing/model that only get better each time. ;-) and stays for 50 years or more.

its like buying car with the latest GPS, crazy stereo and big wheels, your old car got those but not as cool but still gets you from A to point B. same thing with cameras.
Master_O 13 years ago
whatever the specs Canon will come up, the upgrade for the 5D with beat the hell out of its competitors (Nikon D700? oops!). it will not be even close. another of Canons "a-class-of-its-own" camera just like the 5D when it first came out. IMHO
Chris Giuliano 13 years ago
I won't be able to afford something like that. :( Looks like it's going to be the 50D for me.

Guillermo - 13 years ago
Chris dont be dissapointed the 50D seems to be very promising, If i dont have enough for the 5D i will go for the 50D as well .. but release date is what i want to know ... ohh well after tomorrow we might get a clearer insight
Guillermo - 13 years ago
===================** UPDATE!!**======================
just got this link passed to me for the 5DMKII possible specs

* 21.1 MP 1.0x
* ISO 100-6400 L:50 & H:12800
* 5 FPS
* 3.2" High Resolution Screen (LCD)
* 19 point AF
* HDMI Out
* Liveview
* HD Movie Mode
* Viewfinder: 100% Coverage
* Full weather sealing
* EF Lenses only
Metro Tiff Posted 13 years ago. Edited by Metro Tiff (member) 13 years ago
Live view, don't need it. I can see the image throught the viewfinder.

Movie mode, whats that about?? If I wanted video I'd buy a video camera.
Crap why stop there, why not add a GPS, Ipod nano, cell phone, remote mics with left and right channels for true stereo(video). See my point, it is no longer a true still camera but a gadget for the masses, not serious photographers.

21MP sensor is already in their top of the line camera. i can see them using up the remainder of 16MP sensors left over from the 1DsMk11 in the New 5D.

Adding those just clogs up the functions. As a serious photographer I think adding those just cheapens the camera. I want to take stills, nothing else, so those functions are useless to me.

If they are true I won't be buying it, period. Looks like I'm buying another 5D before they're all gone. Or buy the next step up 1DsMK111.

I don't think the Professional photographers will want the video functions, thats not their gig is it. Say it isn't so, Canon.

Photography is about photographs(stills), not video.
Puneet_B 13 years ago
"Movie mode"?

Ah ha ha ha ha. Stoppit. You're killing me.
greenwood100 13 years ago
Liveview reminds me a little of the "print" button on the back of my 5D. does anyone use this or want all these features?
Has anyone ever needed 8FPS unless they are shooting for the Premier League or Usain Bolt for Reuters? 13 years ago
Pop-up flash and video mode to me seems pointless. Live view on the other hand might have a use. There are plenty of times when it is hard to photograph low to the ground or in odd angles. In those instances live view would be handy. That said, there are more pressing needs than live view.
a-a-r0n 13 years ago
The only thing that really blows my mind is the full weather sealing...other than that, nothing really appeals to me. If these specs are real, it better be a hell of a lot cheaper than the D700 because these Mk II specs are really underwhelming. And 21 MP? ugh.
ricky nyhoff 13 years ago
Live view is great for accurate focusing. You can zoom in to 100% of the image on the screen and make sure the exact spot you want is in focus.
hk_traveller Posted 13 years ago. Edited by hk_traveller (member) 13 years ago
I think the new model will release in Sept and within one month time we should know about all the details.

Peraonally I wish the new model has the following features:
- FF of course
- 45 points focus
- anti-dust CMOS cleaning
- 3" or above 0.92M pixel LCD
- HD movie (1280*720 with H.264 format, not M-JPEG AVI)
- ISO 6400 or above
- at least 5fps
- 10M pixel is enough in order to have better low light noise control
- support EF-S lens as well

gazzab2007 13 years ago
november is what some canon reps are saying, but i cant see it going above 17mp, maybe using an updated mk2 sensor.
most of the other specs are easy to guess at, but one thing is certain, it will be good.
*Firefox 13 years ago
In the rash assumption that this is all true, some of this stuff appeals. I do a fair few long exposures using ND filters, so the ISO 50 is very welcome, though I'd have preferred lower again. At the other end of the scale ISO 6400 expandable to 12800 is all well and good as long as the grain is acceptable. We'll wait and see for that. I can live with 19 AF points, and given the crap weather hereabouts lately, the weather sealing is looking very useful too. I'm assuming that self cleaning sensor technology is taken as being such an obvious new feature that it wasn't worth mentioning. I can't imagine what Canon were thinking of by including the movie option.

21 MP.... looks like I'll need to start saving for some bigger disks for my PC as well as for the 5D mkII.
BoldPuppy 13 years ago
I just ordered a 1TB drive from BH... looks like I'll need another 2...
Dr Max Posted 13 years ago. Edited by Dr Max (member) 13 years ago
If I upgrade to a 5D or 5DmkII the high ISO performance (OK, and improved depth of field) will be the reason. If they crank the pixel density up that high in the mkII I won't be buying it, I'll get the current model. There's a reason the high ISO performance of the 5D and D3/D700 are so much better than anything else on the market, and it's those lovely large pixels.

The only things in that list that would induce me to buy the new one over the old one would be even better high ISO (possible, I guess!), built-in flash (I hate flash in general, I particularly hate the idea of carrying a 430EX around in my bag to get a splash of fill-in once every blue moon) and especially better AF. Live view for macros and weather sealing for peace of mind are nice to have, but not a big deal. As for video.. ha ha
BoldPuppy 13 years ago
On one of those links, something interesting struck my eye - dynamic ISO that can vary across the frame. THAT is a feature that would be of interest to me... but it looks like that's something for the next gen, not this MII 5D.
robbersdog 13 years ago
"Liveview reminds me a little of the "print" button on the back of my 5D. does anyone use this or want all these features?"

Live view is the mutt's nuts for macro work.
that sux, the 1d grip is way too big
and i dont want auto anything except focus - dynamic iso sounds great as long as there is an off button!

as the exit pupil of ef-s lenses are smaller theyll fit but youll get vignetting unless it crops the sensor too = whats the point?

everything else seems good

(good (small)dof for video could be interesting) - 1280x720 is some crappy american format - hopefully itll be pal compat.
Wheres the f*King proper radio flash!!!???
macsfstop 13 years ago
Wow... still can't get my head around the concept of varying the iso across an image. If that's really in the eventual future, could the LCD become a touchscreen where you can "draw" or specify your iso values? Do you think we'll ever be able to "dial in" our sensors per image? Pretty interesting thought...
Happy Tinfoil Cat 13 years ago
My guess is it will work like the white flashy portion of the screen when you blow out. It could flash black for under exposure as well. or just do it automagically. Would be a fantastic feature in a lot of situations. Certainly needed for the high-end p&s market too.
more i hear of these "features" the more I want to use film again - might be a good time to pick up a cheap coolscan(nikon are good for some things)
spiky247 13 years ago
I also highly doubt the 5D MKII will have a 21.1MP sensor. It is more probable to arrive with a 16mp sensor, higher ISO range, 3in' lcd, new menu system like the 40D, and live view with contrast AF. And to those who make fun of Liveview, you should give it a try, it is very us full when shooting with manual focus TSE lenses, it works great on my 1ds

now the big question is if they will keep the direct print button...
> Jon 13 years ago
all I want in a new FF camera is the nice 3inch LCD going in the 50D with reflective coating, and 100% viewfinder.

and highlight tone priority, sensor cleaner, etc :)
> Jon 13 years ago
i dont care about megapixels, 12 is fine
BoldPuppy 13 years ago
LOL @ direct print button...

I'd like to know if the high ISO works well with the new processor and sensor... how clean is 12,800? 6400?

Will that new 19 point AF system work as well as the 1D series ones? (I doubt it...) Will it be a real step up from the current system?

will this camera bring any REAL improvements, or just marketing BS?
MACanon 13 years ago
I want one that tells me I'm pretty each morning.
BoldPuppy 13 years ago
Do you have enough money for that one?
Mute* 13 years ago
21.1mp?! Lol.
Adventures Into The Unknown Posted 13 years ago. Edited by Adventures Into The Unknown (member) 13 years ago
what bugs me is canon is capable of putting in a lot more useable true features but dont so they can stagger models and make more money out of us
eg radio flash, they could easily do it but if they made 1 model too much of a jump then the gear junkies would only buy 1 camera instead of getting all the minor updates - so they stagger technology to make sure they get their £1000 every 18months.

if the 5dmkII was what we wanted who would buy the 5dmkIII(which there will be prototypes of and the mkIv will be on the drawing board) - if the devil existed she would be a suited marketing exec.
Un-Alien-able 13 years ago
Sounds a little too much like a 1ds mkii, but maybe that's exactly what it'll be; a rebadged MkII 1Ds! Then again they could drop the 5D altogether and just focus on selling crop frame units, that does seem to be the trend considering howmany models of this configuration they now have, so I wouldn't be surprised!
thechrisproject 13 years ago
What's all this talk of radio flash? Like a built in trigger? For which flash system? I think things work pretty well now with the hot shoe and the pc port. I'd personally rather keep my flash triggers out of my camera.
ripe images 13 years ago
im not for putting one in the camera either. then we have to go with the brand that is in it to use it. also its just another thing that we have to send in to get fixed if there is a problem, and then the whole camera is in the shop rather then a radio trigger.
Mormegil 13 years ago
For people who don't believe the 5D II could possibly have 21MP, think about the 50D that's been recently announced.

The 50D has 15MP. When Canon put out the 5D, the 20D (it's contemporary) just had 8MP. So I doubt Canon would put out a 16MP camera (just 1 MP over the 50D).

Secondly, the pixel density on the 50D if extrapolated to full frame is 38.5MP. I don't think that'll happen on a 5D II, but maybe a 1Ds IV. Point is, they can do an equivalent pixel density of almost 40MP. So 21MP isn't a problem.

Thirdly, they'll want to be competative to Sony's upcoming 24MP camera and whatever Nikon has up it's sleeve.
pixelight 13 years ago
i'm still interested in the movie mode, but not too fond of the CFcard-hungy 21 megapixel sensor
John Goldsmith 13 years ago
One of my contacts is using a Canon 6D.... no joke. His EXIF data even says "Canon 6D." That's all I'm saying... because he's trying to keep it hush hush. The one photo looks nice.

Mormegil 13 years ago
I wouldn't worry too much about 21MP images filling up your CF card. You can always do sRAW1 or sRAW2 pics.

The 50D's sRAW1 is half the resolution, while sRAW2 is a quarter the resolution. So that's about 10MP or 5MP. With the pixel binning, I would think noise would appear less obtrusive too.
Photography by Sue 13 years ago
@WAXY hehehe YOU TEASE!!! So, if you think we are going to search through your 1200 contacts or more to find the ONE photo using a 6D...well...we have nothing better to do...lololol
pixelight 13 years ago
I'm guessing Soozes Shoots knows how many contacts Waxy has because she tried :P

I'm guilty too 13 years ago
There is at least one photograph on Flickr supposedly taken with a Canon EOS 6D (but of course, the photographer could have easily changed the EXIF data). Its timing, however, is curious:
John Goldsmith Posted 13 years ago. Edited by John Goldsmith (member) 13 years ago
Johnny... that's the one. :-)

But now the question is.... do you think the 6D is a medium format body or did Jim just crop it? ;-) Posted 13 years ago. Edited by (member) 13 years ago
I doubt seriously the new Canon camera is medium format. I'm not sure Canon's lenses would work on a true medium format camera. I'm sure the image is cropped and I'm also of the opinion that he changed the EXIF data to read Canon EOS 6D...but his timing IS curious.

Also curious, he seems too good of a photographer to play such stupid games.
Maybe he's just having a laugh.
Guillermo - 13 years ago
Adventures that is the same link i posted above dude :P
thechrisproject 13 years ago
"he seems too good of a photographer to play such stupid games"

Not sure if there's really any connection between the two. :)
stale rose [deleted] 13 years ago
There's a definite difference in "feel" between the "6D" image and O'Connell's 5D images. There seems to be a lot more detail and depth to the image. Of course, a lot of that could be lighting and post processing....
∞ monkeys with cameras - in limbo/no mojo Posted 13 years ago. Edited by ∞ monkeys with cameras - in limbo/no mojo (member) 13 years ago

Mei @ Mission Photographic says:

Maybe he's just having a laugh.

well given there's an image in his stream just a few back with the statement:
"Shot on an expired memory card"
I think we can say he's playing the game with both the Jokers left in the pack
scubapup 13 years ago
he might be laughing right now :)
Dub Photography 13 years ago
does anyone use the LCD screen?

When I made the jump to a rebel xt, I thought I would miss the LCD that I had grown accustom to w/ P&S's but after using just a VF I don't think I could ever go back to framing shots on an LCD screen.

Just curious.
scubapup 13 years ago
i use the lcd when for getting a straighter horizon for landscapes and for zooming in and checking my focus for macros
chikabelley Posted 13 years ago. Edited by chikabelley (member) 13 years ago
So we're all going to be buying $300 CF cards for this thing!

I also hope it has a pop up flash for emergency fill. My 580ex II is a little too big to hide in my pocket.
Mormegil Posted 13 years ago. Edited by Mormegil (member) 13 years ago
That 6D shot is a fake. Jim mentioned he was just messing with the EXIF data on this thread:
phlpwht 13 years ago
it would be the cheapest 35mm hd video by a long way (check out red video cameras to see the other options) other options are 35 thousand euro upwards id like the video funtion. if you dont like it just ignore it. id imahine its just software based so it shouldnt effect image quality or performance in still mode
inate 13 years ago
Here is another little tidbit, pretty lame even as rumors go:
zackojones 13 years ago
Look again at that fake 6D photo it shows it was taken with a "Nikon EOS 6D" :)
hush - oops didnt see that :)

i also use live view for macro - so much easier and saves your neck and back
fotobydave 13 years ago
Yup! I've been using the LCD a lot lately. Need to check the histogram to make sure of the exposure.
kindly card [deleted] 13 years ago
I hear that it's going to contain the Enterprise in it's buffer.
Al I can say right now is cross your finger and hold your breath... I spent some time today talking to a couple of very excited but very close lipped people "in the loop" who said that the EOS body that will be announced just before Photokina is "pretty amazing", not allowed to say what exactly it is but given it's pretty much official that there will be a new body for Photokina they didn't have an issue both saying they were impressed....

... but neither seemed happy with the competitiveness of the speculated price V Nikon's equivalent model.

I'm not one for rumours but I do know at least one of these people has been "in the loop" with previous Canon DSLR model testing.

roll on Photokina is all I can say
*Firefox 13 years ago
"but neither seemed happy with the competitiveness of the speculated price V Nikon's equivalent model."

The D700 is retailing for £1759 at one of my local camera emporiums. To be competitive I would be expecting it to hit the shelves at a comparable price. Surely they can't go far past that and expect it to sell in significant volume.
(1 to 100 of 116 replies)
Groups Beta